I don't care if you're liberal or conservative, a dove or a hawk; but anyone with an open mind has to concede that Obama's health care plan is immoral, inhumane (to those who work), and unfair in a nonpartisan sense.
Consider this: He wants to cover all 15 MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS with the same plan that HE gets as a senator (and eventually, president). Liberals who are in favor of socialized medicine don't like to reveal the following fact, but I will--and if you're not sure which party you support or who you're going to vote for, PAY ATTENTION:
There are only a certain amount of doctors out there, and the population is growing without a proportionate amount of doctors to adequately service all of these people. And a lot of these people are flooding to the United States because their former country has tried unsuccessfully to implement policies and been bankrupted precisely due to policies such as, exactly, among other things, socialism and corruption (these two feed off each other).
I repeat, Obama wants to cover everyone who lives here--without enough doctors to go around--including 15 million people who broke the law to get in here and are still breaking the law by living here.
So, as a young guy talking to my generation (and older people can and should take this even more seriously), do you want YOUR PARENTS TO DIE because they have to wait in line behind an illegal immigrant to get that bypass surgery or to get the latest cancer treatment?
That's what Barack Obama plans to do with our health care system. I strongly wish that every person in the world could be protected and have access to the best medicine, but at this point, that's wishful thinking, and namely--what is becoming more and more evident regarding Obama--naive.
Cup, i myself am skeptical of the merits of universal health care and feel that Obama is generally way too pro-illegal, but I have to call you out on a few things:
First off, the term "socialized medicine" is nothing but a rightwing term used to distort and mislead citizens as to what universal healthcare really means. The term was used to attack Hillary Clintons healthcare plan, which, for all its flaws, was NOT the radical, socialist program that conservatives lawmakers and radio talk show hosts made it out to be. In reality, much of the plan relied on the private sector and was conceived as a workable compromise between the government and traditional market forces.
He wants to cover all 15 MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS with the same plan that HE gets as a senator (and eventually, president).
Can you provide a reliable source for this claim? During the Jan. 21 between Obama, Clinton, and Edwards, this is what Obama said about his health plan and illegals:
Q: Does your health care plan cover the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants?
A: It does not. We've got limited resources. When we've got millions of citizens that aren't yet covered, it's important for us to make sure that they are provided coverag We have an obligation to make sure that children are covered. The only way we're going to be able to overcome the insurance companies, & the drug companies, & the HMOs who are profiting from the current system is if we are having all these negotiations in a public setting, we are very clear about who's carrying water for the drug companies and the insurance companies, and who is looking out for the families who are struggling. Those who have health care are looking at such high premiums that effectively it's not really health insurance, it's house insurance. They're paying premiums, in case they get hit by a car, they don't lose their home. But they never go to a doctor. We've got to have the American people clear about the choices that we face.
Unless he changed his mind, this doesnt sound like health insurance for illegals to me.
For those who are interested, here is the full record of Obamas views on universal health care from the nonpartisan website ontheissues.org:
Universal Coverage
AdWatch: My plan costs $2,500 less per family than Clinton's. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Unclear if Obama's plan costs less than Clinton's. (Apr 2008)
Universal health care means anyone who wants it can get it. (Feb 2008)
Insurers are happy to have a mandate; issue is affordability. (Feb 2008)
Voluntary universal participation, like in Medicare Part B. (Feb 2008)
Mandating kids' insurance ok; mandating adults has problems. (Feb 2008)
Young adults up to age 25 can be covered under parents' plan. (Feb 2008)
My plan does more than anybody to reduce costs. (Feb 2008)
My health plan does not leave 15 million people uncovered. (Feb 2008)
Adults will get health care as they can afford it. (Feb 2008)
AdWatch: punishing uninsured families doesn't make sense. (Feb 2008)
FactCheck: Hillary's plan does mandate; but so does Obama's. (Feb 2008)
No one turned away due to illness or pre-existing condition. (Feb 2008)
Buy private insurance via National Health Insurance Exchange. (Feb 2008)
Against enforcement mechanism for mandating insurance. (Jan 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama favored single-payer, despite denial. (Jan 2008)
FactCheck: No, US costs are not twice as much as others. (Jan 2008)
AdWatch: Pressure insurance & drug companies to change. (Jan 2008)
FactCheck: OPPORTUNITY to insure all, but no GUARANTEE. (Jan 2008)
AdWatch: Don't make it illegal not to have health care. (Jan 2008)
Being poor in this country is hazardous to your health. (Dec 2007)
Problem isn't mandating coverage, but affording it. (Nov 2007)
FactCheck: Coverage plan might leave 8.5 million uninsured. (Nov 2007)
Cautious incremental plan offers choice & subsidy. (Nov 2007)
Added 20,000 children to Illinois healthcare. (Oct 2007)
Government healthcare like members of Congress have. (Sep 2007)
Increase competition in the insurance and drug markets. (Aug 2007)
National Health Insurance Exchange for private coverage. (Aug 2007)
Health plan cuts typical family's premium by $2,500 a year. (Jun 2007)
Give people the choice to buy affordable health care. (Jun 2007)
National insurance pool & catastrophic insurance. (Apr 2007)
Employers are going to have to pay or play. (Mar 2007)
Need political will to accomplish universal coverage. (Mar 2007)
Healthcare system is broken without lifetime employment. (Oct 2006)
The market alone can't solve our health-care woes. (Oct 2006)
Focus on the affordability of a broad healthcare plan. (Jan 2006)
Crises happen in our lives and healthcare is necessary. (Oct 2004)
Believes health care is a right, not a privilege for the few. (Sep 2004)
Will expand health coverage & allow meds to be re-imported. (May 2004)
Ensure access to basic care. (Jul 1998)
It seems to me that Obama would be the first to admit that his plan is deeply flawed. One of his first overatures to the Hillary people was a frank admission of just that along with a promise (very believable) that he would support a better plan when it came along. (As many of us firmly intend that it will.) While Clinton's plan actually was workable, I would prefer to see a single payer system, so I hope that we end up going that way.
The time for major reform of our system has arrived. Too many people are becoming aware of just how bad our system has become, especially compartively. We've dropped to what, 42nd, with dwindling numbers of people still crowing that the US is Number One, as we slip farther and farther behind the rest of the developed world. We've let greed endanger our national soul and we're circling the drain about now. One way or another, big change is coming.
Well firstly, in 2006 he voted in favor of offering legal status to illegals, which obviously indicates that he's not opposed to an "illegal" immigrant becoming a "legal" one overnight. http://www.nashua...1/news0801
Some of the biggest corporations in America, giants of industry like GM and Ford, are watching foreign competitors based in countries with universal health care run circles around them, with a GM car containing seven times as much health care cost as a Japanese car.
No one will be turned away because of a preexisting condition or illness.
If you browse his site, he never denies that illegals won't be covered, namely--this wouldn't exactly be a good thing to advertise given the fact that he's in the midst of a presidential election. But the important thing to be aware of, if you study his plan (again, there on his own site), is that he basically wants to make full benefits available to anyone living in the country who has a job. According to his site, the plan will have a huge emphasis on "Employer Contribution":
Employers that do not offer or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan.
.
Well, guess what? There are an awful lot of illegal immigrants who are working and will reap benefits of such health care policy.
He says,
The benefit package will be similar to that offered through Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the plan members of Congress have. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.
But the main point that I'm making is that universal health care (I'll refrain from using "socialized medicine" per your request) is reasonable and altruistic in theory, but just not feasible. If our country produced enough doctors, I'd be all for it. But the problem is that the population is growing and there are just not enough hospitals, facilities, doctors, medicinal technologies, etc., to adequately service everyone.
And I hate to sound cynical, but I'll make a realistic judgment. One of the reasons why people go to college and try to get that great job is because, as part of the deal, that job provides them with health insurance. If a government just gives it to everyone, there's no incentive to become educated and attain that lucrative employment (thus also diluting contribution to our economy and society). While governments should be humanitarian, it isn't their responsibility to give everything to everyone without condition.
I also forgot to mention, Obama mentions, repeatedly, and his site confirms, that he wants to cover the 47 uninsured "Americans." This is what you can read if you go to barackobama.com:
47 million Americans including nearly 9 million children lack health insurance with no signs of this trend slowing down.
What he conveniently neglects to point out, is that 15 million of the 47 million includes illegals.
First, just because he favors legalizing illegals doesn't make his position on health care wrong. Since they would be legal, where's the beef? They'd be paying taxes like everybody else, and their employers would be taking out premiums just like they do you! So where's the free ride you complain about? This is just an issue to muddy the waters and bring about an emotional response from the conservative base! Plus, it reeks of racism.
His quote:
Some of the biggest corporations in America, giants of industry like GM and Ford, are watching foreign competitors based in countries with universal health care run circles around them, with a GM car containing seven times as much health care cost as a Japanese car.
Doesn't sound like a position FOR universal health care, as much as a caution that the current system is pretty darn expensive on its own! Plus, can you dispute it?
No one will be turned away because of a preexisting condition or illness.
This doesn't sound like an invitation to cover illegal aliens, I think you are reading too much into it. It simply shows that pre-existing conditions will not disqualify an otherwise qualified person. It makes ANY insurance program more attractive!
The benefit package will be similar to that offered through Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the plan members of Congress have. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.
And what's wrong with this? I am covered by that plan, and it is made possible by the large number of employees in the coverage pool - which would be doubly true in a national plan. Any insurance plan is priced according to the likelihood that there are more healthy individuals that will pay for the problems of the sick ones, and generally, the larger the numbers, the more true this is. Thus, a larger pool makes for lower premiums, or better benefits, or both.
I won't dispute your worries about the numbers of hospitals, doctors, and especially nurses. That is, yes, a worry that I see, too.
But your position isn't helped by incorrect information or appeals to emotion!
What he conveniently neglects to point out, is that 15 million of the 47 million includes illegals.
rwahrens, you're right, the way I stated that last part was technically incorrect. I should have put it like this: there are 15 million illegal immigrants in the U.S., and Obama's plan would cover them all (technically, 15 million aren't all uninsured, but 59% of them are). And you asked for sources; here's a good article:
wait, he has a health care plan?? Joking, joking. Sadly, this plan isn't surprising, given the recent trend to run to the umbrella term of "universal healthcare" without also working hard to hammer out important and useful facts. Universal healthcare IS important, but implementing a system that actually WORKS and that won't bankrupt the nation, is important too. And most importantly: look at other examples of socialized medicine systems. As mentioned in this article, when all health care providers are paid the same wage to take care of Patient A as Patient B, there will be absolutely no incentive to help one person over the other. If you look into it, it's not hard to find stories from people outside of the US who were very ill and left their country's socialized medicine system, in order to find healthcare that would save their lives.
First off, the term "socialized medicine" is nothing but a rightwing term used to distort and mislead citizens as to what universal healthcare really means. The term was used to attack Hillary Clintons healthcare plan, which, for all its flaws, was NOT the radical, socialist program that conservatives lawmakers and radio talk show hosts made it out to be. In reality, much of the plan relied on the private sector and was conceived as a workable compromise between the government and traditional market forces.
Can you provide a reliable source for this claim? During the Jan. 21 between Obama, Clinton, and Edwards, this is what Obama said about his health plan and illegals:
A: It does not. We've got limited resources. When we've got millions of citizens that aren't yet covered, it's important for us to make sure that they are provided coverag We have an obligation to make sure that children are covered. The only way we're going to be able to overcome the insurance companies, & the drug companies, & the HMOs who are profiting from the current system is if we are having all these negotiations in a public setting, we are very clear about who's carrying water for the drug companies and the insurance companies, and who is looking out for the families who are struggling. Those who have health care are looking at such high premiums that effectively it's not really health insurance, it's house insurance. They're paying premiums, in case they get hit by a car, they don't lose their home. But they never go to a doctor. We've got to have the American people clear about the choices that we face.
Unless he changed his mind, this doesnt sound like health insurance for illegals to me.
For those who are interested, here is the full record of Obamas views on universal health care from the nonpartisan website ontheissues.org:
AdWatch: My plan costs $2,500 less per family than Clinton's. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Unclear if Obama's plan costs less than Clinton's. (Apr 2008)
Universal health care means anyone who wants it can get it. (Feb 2008)
Insurers are happy to have a mandate; issue is affordability. (Feb 2008)
Voluntary universal participation, like in Medicare Part B. (Feb 2008)
Mandating kids' insurance ok; mandating adults has problems. (Feb 2008)
Young adults up to age 25 can be covered under parents' plan. (Feb 2008)
My plan does more than anybody to reduce costs. (Feb 2008)
My health plan does not leave 15 million people uncovered. (Feb 2008)
Adults will get health care as they can afford it. (Feb 2008)
AdWatch: punishing uninsured families doesn't make sense. (Feb 2008)
FactCheck: Hillary's plan does mandate; but so does Obama's. (Feb 2008)
No one turned away due to illness or pre-existing condition. (Feb 2008)
Buy private insurance via National Health Insurance Exchange. (Feb 2008)
Against enforcement mechanism for mandating insurance. (Jan 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama favored single-payer, despite denial. (Jan 2008)
FactCheck: No, US costs are not twice as much as others. (Jan 2008)
AdWatch: Pressure insurance & drug companies to change. (Jan 2008)
FactCheck: OPPORTUNITY to insure all, but no GUARANTEE. (Jan 2008)
AdWatch: Don't make it illegal not to have health care. (Jan 2008)
Being poor in this country is hazardous to your health. (Dec 2007)
Problem isn't mandating coverage, but affording it. (Nov 2007)
FactCheck: Coverage plan might leave 8.5 million uninsured. (Nov 2007)
Cautious incremental plan offers choice & subsidy. (Nov 2007)
Added 20,000 children to Illinois healthcare. (Oct 2007)
Government healthcare like members of Congress have. (Sep 2007)
Increase competition in the insurance and drug markets. (Aug 2007)
National Health Insurance Exchange for private coverage. (Aug 2007)
Health plan cuts typical family's premium by $2,500 a year. (Jun 2007)
Give people the choice to buy affordable health care. (Jun 2007)
National insurance pool & catastrophic insurance. (Apr 2007)
Employers are going to have to pay or play. (Mar 2007)
Need political will to accomplish universal coverage. (Mar 2007)
Healthcare system is broken without lifetime employment. (Oct 2006)
The market alone can't solve our health-care woes. (Oct 2006)
Focus on the affordability of a broad healthcare plan. (Jan 2006)
Crises happen in our lives and healthcare is necessary. (Oct 2004)
Believes health care is a right, not a privilege for the few. (Sep 2004)
Will expand health coverage & allow meds to be re-imported. (May 2004)
Ensure access to basic care. (Jul 1998)